What is your take on forms?

[burungkol]

But kata means form in Japanese.

oh i see, thanks for that information huggybear. i never knew that. thank you.

by kata, i was referring to (as what malayan have said) the series of predetermined movements combined so they can be practiced as one linear set of movements like the the particular choreographed movements. I do not like it.

with forms, i was referring to perfecting the form in terms of the right angle, positioning, delivery, speed, timing, and accuracy.

so, instead of memorizing step 1 horse stance, step 2 punch right, step 3 step block-kick right.... on so on, i would normally throw 500 left kicks then 500 right kicks then 500 alternating right-left kicks instead.

[Huggybear]

oh i see, thanks for that information huggybear. i never knew that. thank you.

by kata, i was referring to (as what malayan have said) the series of predetermined movements combined so they can be practiced as one linear set of movements like the the particular choreographed movements. I do not like it.

with forms, i was referring to perfecting the form in terms of the right angle, positioning, delivery, speed, timing, and accuracy.

so, instead of memorizing step 1 horse stance, step 2 punch right, step 3 step block-kick right.... on so on, i would normally throw 500 left kicks then 500 right kicks then 500 alternating right-left kicks instead.

Yes, I think that's the root of confusion regarding kata and forms.

Of course there are such things as good and bad forms, useful and useless.

If we go with the broader definition of forms though, it can be said that ALL teachers use forms to teach their students. A boxing trainer showing the proper form of a jab or an uppercut would be showing his form to his students in the same manner that a Judo sensei would demonstrate the first set of throws from the nage no kata. Within the same line of thought, different FMA instructors would always be correcting my overhead strike with a stick. One would say that allowing a small part of the stick to protrude from the bottom of my fist is "bad form" as even an inch of reach is critical to hitting your opponent. Another would say that it is proper form as it gives me the options to attack with a puño if the fight went to close range. These in the broader definition, are examples of form training, therefore I agree with you as well.

Like men, all kata are not created equal.

Like you I do not have much faith in rehearsing sequences of predetermined movements as being reliant on these somewhat hinders the "expect the unexpected" mindset of the practitioner. Although I would like to reiterate what TK mentioned regarding these kata, that before the advent of camcorders, these forms did have the function of preserving an art's techniques, like how a catalog would display a company's portfolio.

[Sicilian]

Imho, Kata has its place in martial arts.

Of course it is useless if not trained with resisting partners.
It is a good teaching tool which can point out the basic outlines of techniques which is virtually imperceptible to the beginner who is taking up the art.

If a beginner is subjected to live drilling and sparring immediately without learning the basics, he will develop into a pure muscle memory dependent practitioner, as opposed to someone who's been exposed to forms which can demonstrate concepts and principles that cannot be learned by drilling alone.

To illustrate my point, I will give this example. I've had several instructors in Judo and I will describe two schools of learning that I was exposed to.

The first instructor is uber traditional with his teaching methods. He started by outlining the kata form of a technique and demonstrating it in its classical form. He lets the students try it for a few sets.
He then proceeds to show several modifications of the techniques by different olympians. He encourages the students to try each one and to continue practicing the particular style that they find the easiest to adapt to their body type, without neglecting the principles demonstrated by the classical form.

The next instructor starts with drills for a specific technique that is shown to be a high percentage move in live sparring and competition. He requires the students to choose a particular technique, chosen from several high percentage techniques that he would demonstrate at the start of the class and would ask them to drill them until it comes out of their ears.

As I have observed, they both produced topnotch competitors and practitioners of the art. The second instructor's students were adept at using the techniques that they rehearsed a million times in the dojo. They became effective athletes and won many tournaments. The students of the first instructor also performed well in tournaments and are consistent finalists if not the winner of the tournament.

The difference though, lies in their students' approach to a match or a sparring session. The students of the second instructor fought with a direct, no nonsense style as opposed to the more open and constantly shifting style of the first instructor's students. I have reached the conclusion that the students who were educated with kata had more potential to be more adaptable than those who were not taught kata as the kata folk actually understood the mechanics and concepts behind the techniques, compared to the non kata folk who rely on pure instinct alone which in my opinion, would translate to a decreased ability to adapt and formulate an alternative strategy once an opponent has discovered his strengths and weaknesses. I would also like to add that most of the kata educated judoka have a predisposition to become better and more well rounded teachers than the non kata judoka.

Of course, at the end of the day it all boils down to the art's and the teacher's goals. Was the art created as a form of education? Or a means to produce athetes or killing machines?

Nicely put bro! Galing!!! I'm starting to stick back to tradition. I believe many traditional styles were once very alive and effective. It's just that people have misconstrued their usage.

[Huggybear]

Nicely put bro! Galing!!! I'm starting to stick back to tradition. I believe many traditional styles were once very alive and effective. It's just that people have misconstrued their usage.

Yes. People who got their blackbelts purely by kata exams always invite raised eyebrows from people who actually compete.
It's like getting an award for shadowboxing

[Malayan]

I personally like forms. they are like the theory and ideology to any fighting style. it gives it it's distinction from other arts and other schools of thought. but of course, theory is nothing without practice so there should be a balance between the two.

We should try and preserve these forms one way or another it's one of the things that make martial arts an art.

[shootodog]

FMA has sayaw. well, most FMA anyway has sayaw. ONE FMA has forms called ANYO (give you a prize if you guess it). ANYO = KATA. pre-set forms. sayaw =/= KATA as it is not pre-set even though the movements that will be used in SAYAW are standardized executable movements learned in class, just not executed in any SET FORM.

now the RBSD-JKD-I LOVE VUNAK-I KISS GUNS nuthugger handbook says: "forms are nice. just not here".

now my personal take on it is, if we speak of MARTIAL ARTS and your MARTIAL ART has it then by all means partake of it. if your martial arts doesn't then don't. if you're a reality freak then you should be cleaning you knives and guns and not looking at some _)(*(&(*&^* thread.

[Malayan]

you're a reality freak then you should be cleaning you knives and guns and not looking at some _)(*(&(*&^* thread.

lets hope there arent any nuts like these in this thread or are they? haha

[burungkol]

if you're a reality freak then you should be cleaning you knives and guns and not looking at some _)(*(&(*&^* thread.

no worries, i keep them knives dirty... and rusted.

[shootodog]

no worries, i keep them knives dirty... and rusted.

and sharp! dont forget sharp! a knife is useless if it's not sharp!

and stop drooling and whispering to your knife while you sharpen it. well, don't do that in front of other people.

[Thread_Killer]

Actually, if you just want to fight, you don't even need good form.